BOA short sale negotiator experts- I need some tips on how to get that boiler plate deficiency language removed

The short sale is approved after having had to escalate this to the area manager.

 

Now seller's attorney advised seller against closing due to the deficiency language in the note which you are all familiar with.

 

 

I have no problem raising hell with whomever I need to but need a little direction.

 

What level do we deal with on this if we want to push the issue?  

 

 

The canned response the buyer's attorney received from the closer was that' BOA does  not make any exceptions in the state of florida- period.'

 

Has anyone specifically in Florida ever had the deficiency  language removed .?

 

'Is what the closer told the attorney true or just an out and out lie?  .

 

Sound advice greatly appreciated. 

 

 

Al Goldin

Florida     

Views: 228

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Marx on July 12, 2010 at 11:04am
That is the point is that most all lenders will remove it. BOA will not.



Jeff Payne said:
At the risk of sounding dumb, just ask them to remove it. I have done it on several. I still don't think that it means that they can NOT pursue a deficiency in Florida unless it specifically says they wont...
Permalink Reply by Paul Kuriatnyk on July 12, 2010 at 7:58pm
Jeff,
Would you be able to post a copy of one of those approval letters with the deficiency verbiage removed? I am curious to see one without it... I have been told that they do not exist. Would also love to hear how you got them to remove it.
Thanks a million
-Paul

Jeff Payne said:
the last 3 that I closed had the language removed......

Barbara J. Rice said:
Al: I've done a number of BofA short sales and they will NOT change the language. Period. The best success I had was they deleted the deficiency language but that doesn't remove their right to pursue. BoA's verbal position (no, they won't put it in writing) is that they reserve the right to go after the deficiency but they don't intend to pursue unless they determine there was fraud committed in the course of the short sale. Good luck.
Permalink Reply by Steve Marx on July 13, 2010 at 5:41am
I'm in with Paul. I want to see one. I do not think that BOA will make the change. This is a huge issue that people in my area have been trying to deal with for a while now. Any other lender, no problem. BOA, big problem. We handle our BOA short sale completely differently because of this single issue.




Paul Kuriatnyk said:
Jeff,
Would you be able to post a copy of one of those approval letters with the deficiency verbiage removed? I am curious to see one without it... I have been told that they do not exist. Would also love to hear how you got them to remove it.
Thanks a million
-Paul

Jeff Payne said:
the last 3 that I closed had the language removed......

Barbara J. Rice said:
Al: I've done a number of BofA short sales and they will NOT change the language. Period. The best success I had was they deleted the deficiency language but that doesn't remove their right to pursue. BoA's verbal position (no, they won't put it in writing) is that they reserve the right to go after the deficiency but they don't intend to pursue unless they determine there was fraud committed in the course of the short sale. Good luck.
Permalink Reply by Barbara J. Rice on July 13, 2010 at 5:52am
Yes, I will provide a copy (sans client info) within 24 hours. It was a big deal for my client (even though I told him it didn't extinguish the deficiency) so we just kept badgering BofA. ALSO, I was working with a high-level negotiator so she probably had a little more wiggle room than most.

Steve Marx said:
I'm in with Paul. I want to see one. I do not think that BOA will make the change. This is a huge issue that people in my area have been trying to deal with for a while now. Any other lender, no problem. BOA, big problem. We handle our BOA short sale completely differently because of this single issue.




Paul Kuriatnyk said:
Jeff,
Would you be able to post a copy of one of those approval letters with the deficiency verbiage removed? I am curious to see one without it... I have been told that they do not exist. Would also love to hear how you got them to remove it.
Thanks a million
-Paul

Jeff Payne said:
the last 3 that I closed had the language removed......

Barbara J. Rice said:
Al: I've done a number of BofA short sales and they will NOT change the language. Period. The best success I had was they deleted the deficiency language but that doesn't remove their right to pursue. BoA's verbal position (no, they won't put it in writing) is that they reserve the right to go after the deficiency but they don't intend to pursue unless they determine there was fraud committed in the course of the short sale. Good luck.
Permalink Reply by Jake Bowers on July 13, 2010 at 8:59am
Hi Steve,

Interesting that you change the way you handle a BOA short sale because of this intractable language issue. Can you share what you do differently? I am trying to strateigize and set expectations on a BOA SS in-process, and your experience might help. Many thanks in advance...

Steve Marx said:
I'm in with Paul. I want to see one. I do not think that BOA will make the change. This is a huge issue that people in my area have been trying to deal with for a while now. Any other lender, no problem. BOA, big problem. We handle our BOA short sale completely differently because of this single issue.
Permalink Reply by Steve Marx on July 13, 2010 at 10:26am
No problem. The goal when I do a short sale is to get a full settlement letter on all mortgages. Not just get a lien release and leave the home owner on the hook for the balance. The long and short of it is that when settling a mortgage typically the lenders will issue a lien release at one price and a full settlement with a little bit additional cash, so I put in place several contingency's at the beginning of a short sale to make that happen.

The strategy is different depending on how many mortgages there are and who they are with. BOA for example and the language I know they will not remove has a huge impact. With BOA it also depends on who the second is with, how much it is and the value of the property to the value of the BOA debt and how big the second mortgage is. Then weighing out what debt would we the easiest to settle and what likely would be the most recoverable by the lender after the fact. For example who the investor is on the BOA loan and if they are pursuing deficiency's etc..

In my opinion anyone who has the sellers best interest in mind will understand these details. Its not about selling the house, that is the easy part, its about settling the debt. In a short sale the real problem is a debt problem, not a sales price problem.

I have posted several approval letters illustrating this on my website. Not sure if they are OK with me posting links here.



I have been meaning to upload some from this year but haven't gotten around to it yet. Also some form BOA and more specific ways to handle a BOA short sale and still settle the second mortgage.

Jake Bowers said:
Hi Steve,

Interesting that you change the way you handle a BOA short sale because of this intractable language issue. Can you share what you do differently? I am trying to strateigize and set expectations on a BOA SS in-process, and your experience might help. Many thanks in advance...

Steve Marx said:
I'm in with Paul. I want to see one. I do not think that BOA will make the change. This is a huge issue that people in my area have been trying to deal with for a while now. Any other lender, no problem. BOA, big problem. We handle our BOA short sale completely differently because of this single issue.
Permalink Reply by Steve Marx on July 13, 2010 at 10:27am
I posted a link. But it looks like they do not allow that here.

sorry.



Steve Marx said:
No problem. The goal when I do a short sale is to get a full settlement letter on all mortgages. Not just get a lien release and leave the home owner on the hook for the balance. The long and short of it is that when settling a mortgage typically the lenders will issue a lien release at one price and a full settlement with a little bit additional cash, so I put in place several contingency's at the beginning of a short sale to make that happen.

The strategy is different depending on how many mortgages there are and who they are with. BOA for example and the language I know they will not remove has a huge impact. With BOA it also depends on who the second is with, how much it is and the value of the property to the value of the BOA debt and how big the second mortgage is. Then weighing out what debt would we the easiest to settle and what likely would be the most recoverable by the lender after the fact. For example who the investor is on the BOA loan and if they are pursuing deficiency's etc..

In my opinion anyone who has the sellers best interest in mind will understand these details. Its not about selling the house, that is the easy part, its about settling the debt. In a short sale the real problem is a debt problem, not a sales price problem.

I have posted several approval letters illustrating this on my website. Not sure if they are OK with me posting links here.



I have been meaning to upload some from this year but haven't gotten around to it yet. Also some form BOA and more specific ways to handle a BOA short sale and still settle the second mortgage.

Jake Bowers said:
Hi Steve,

Interesting that you change the way you handle a BOA short sale because of this intractable language issue. Can you share what you do differently? I am trying to strateigize and set expectations on a BOA SS in-process, and your experience might help. Many thanks in advance...

Steve Marx said:
I'm in with Paul. I want to see one. I do not think that BOA will make the change. This is a huge issue that people in my area have been trying to deal with for a while now. Any other lender, no problem. BOA, big problem. We handle our BOA short sale completely differently because of this single issue.
Permalink Reply by Barbara J. Rice on July 13, 2010 at 11:04am
I'm attempting to attach the two documents that show a BofA approval WITH the deficiency language and one WITHOUT. As I noted before though, even though the langugage is removed is does not release the deficiency. See the attachment. The first document is WITH the language is the second is WITHOUT.

Barbara J. Rice said:
Yes, I will provide a copy (sans client info) within 24 hours. It was a big deal for my client (even though I told him it didn't extinguish the deficiency) so we just kept badgering BofA. ALSO, I was working with a high-level negotiator so she probably had a little more wiggle room than most.

Steve Marx said:
I'm in with Paul. I want to see one. I do not think that BOA will make the change. This is a huge issue that people in my area have been trying to deal with for a while now. Any other lender, no problem. BOA, big problem. We handle our BOA short sale completely differently because of this single issue.




Paul Kuriatnyk said:
Jeff,
Would you be able to post a copy of one of those approval letters with the deficiency verbiage removed? I am curious to see one without it... I have been told that they do not exist. Would also love to hear how you got them to remove it.
Thanks a million
-Paul

Jeff Payne said:
the last 3 that I closed had the language removed......

Barbara J. Rice said:
Al: I've done a number of BofA short sales and they will NOT change the language. Period. The best success I had was they deleted the deficiency language but that doesn't remove their right to pursue. BoA's verbal position (no, they won't put it in writing) is that they reserve the right to go after the deficiency but they don't intend to pursue unless they determine there was fraud committed in the course of the short sale. Good luck.
Attachments:
Permalink Reply by Steve Marx on July 13, 2010 at 11:20am
Barbara,

Great post! Thanks so much for attaching the letters! Did the sellers take a P-Note on the second letter?

Notice in the bottom right corner the letter reads "no def", no deficiency.

Talk to an attorney because I have had several tell me in my state that unless they specifically reserve their right to pursue a deficiency, the short payoff acceptance with out specific reservation creates enough ambiguity that the rest of the debt may not be collectible. Better off getting the waive the right to deficiency language but this letter is a small miracle. Great job! I am really curious though if there was a P-Note on that deal?

Thanks!


Barbara J. Rice said:
I'm attempting to attach the two documents that show a BofA approval WITH the deficiency language and one WITHOUT. As I noted before though, even though the langugage is removed is does not release the deficiency. See the attachment. The first document is WITH the language is the second is WITHOUT.

Barbara J. Rice said:
Yes, I will provide a copy (sans client info) within 24 hours. It was a big deal for my client (even though I told him it didn't extinguish the deficiency) so we just kept badgering BofA. ALSO, I was working with a high-level negotiator so she probably had a little more wiggle room than most.

Steve Marx said:
I'm in with Paul. I want to see one. I do not think that BOA will make the change. This is a huge issue that people in my area have been trying to deal with for a while now. Any other lender, no problem. BOA, big problem. We handle our BOA short sale completely differently because of this single issue.




Paul Kuriatnyk said:
Jeff,
Would you be able to post a copy of one of those approval letters with the deficiency verbiage removed? I am curious to see one without it... I have been told that they do not exist. Would also love to hear how you got them to remove it.
Thanks a million
-Paul

Jeff Payne said:
the last 3 that I closed had the language removed......

Barbara J. Rice said:
Al: I've done a number of BofA short sales and they will NOT change the language. Period. The best success I had was they deleted the deficiency language but that doesn't remove their right to pursue. BoA's verbal position (no, they won't put it in writing) is that they reserve the right to go after the deficiency but they don't intend to pursue unless they determine there was fraud committed in the course of the short sale. Good luck.
Permalink Reply by Barbara J. Rice on July 13, 2010 at 11:33am
There was a P-note paid to the MI company for MI that BofA purchased.
I'm in Nevada. My understanding is the lien holders may pursue the deficiency for up to 6 years after a short sale if the deficiency wasn't waived. If I were a lawyer I would use the file name of "nodef" just the way you suggested and twist it around enough so collection would be questionable. :-)

Steve Marx said:
Barbara,

Great post! Thanks so much for attaching the letters! Did the sellers take a P-Note on the second letter?

Notice in the bottom right corner the letter reads "no def", no deficiency.

Talk to an attorney because I have had several tell me in my state that unless they specifically reserve their right to pursue a deficiency, the short payoff acceptance with out specific reservation creates enough ambiguity that the rest of the debt may not be collectible. Better off getting the waive the right to deficiency language but this letter is a small miracle. Great job! I am really curious though if there was a P-Note on that deal?

Thanks!


Barbara J. Rice said:
I'm attempting to attach the two documents that show a BofA approval WITH the deficiency language and one WITHOUT. As I noted before though, even though the langugage is removed is does not release the deficiency. See the attachment. The first document is WITH the language is the second is WITHOUT.

Barbara J. Rice said:
Yes, I will provide a copy (sans client info) within 24 hours. It was a big deal for my client (even though I told him it didn't extinguish the deficiency) so we just kept badgering BofA. ALSO, I was working with a high-level negotiator so she probably had a little more wiggle room than most.

Steve Marx said:
I'm in with Paul. I want to see one. I do not think that BOA will make the change. This is a huge issue that people in my area have been trying to deal with for a while now. Any other lender, no problem. BOA, big problem. We handle our BOA short sale completely differently because of this single issue.




Paul Kuriatnyk said:
Jeff,
Would you be able to post a copy of one of those approval letters with the deficiency verbiage removed? I am curious to see one without it... I have been told that they do not exist. Would also love to hear how you got them to remove it.
Thanks a million
-Paul

Jeff Payne said:
the last 3 that I closed had the language removed......

Barbara J. Rice said:
Al: I've done a number of BofA short sales and they will NOT change the language. Period. The best success I had was they deleted the deficiency language but that doesn't remove their right to pursue. BoA's verbal position (no, they won't put it in writing) is that they reserve the right to go after the deficiency but they don't intend to pursue unless they determine there was fraud committed in the course of the short sale. Good luck.
Permalink Reply by Paul Kuriatnyk on July 13, 2010 at 11:53am
Thank you very much for posting the letters!

Barbara J. Rice said:
I'm attempting to attach the two documents that show a BofA approval WITH the deficiency language and one WITHOUT. As I noted before though, even though the langugage is removed is does not release the deficiency. See the attachment. The first document is WITH the language is the second is WITHOUT.

Barbara J. Rice said:
Yes, I will provide a copy (sans client info) within 24 hours. It was a big deal for my client (even though I told him it didn't extinguish the deficiency) so we just kept badgering BofA. ALSO, I was working with a high-level negotiator so she probably had a little more wiggle room than most.

Steve Marx said:
I'm in with Paul. I want to see one. I do not think that BOA will make the change. This is a huge issue that people in my area have been trying to deal with for a while now. Any other lender, no problem. BOA, big problem. We handle our BOA short sale completely differently because of this single issue.




Paul Kuriatnyk said:
Jeff,
Would you be able to post a copy of one of those approval letters with the deficiency verbiage removed? I am curious to see one without it... I have been told that they do not exist. Would also love to hear how you got them to remove it.
Thanks a million
-Paul

Jeff Payne said:
the last 3 that I closed had the language removed......

Barbara J. Rice said:
Al: I've done a number of BofA short sales and they will NOT change the language. Period. The best success I had was they deleted the deficiency language but that doesn't remove their right to pursue. BoA's verbal position (no, they won't put it in writing) is that they reserve the right to go after the deficiency but they don't intend to pursue unless they determine there was fraud committed in the course of the short sale. Good luck.
Permalink Reply by Paul Kuriatnyk on July 13, 2010 at 12:09pm
Barbara,
Have you ever received one of those second approvals without the seller signing a P-note?

Barbara J. Rice said:
negotiator?groupUrl=bankofamericashortsales&commentId=3468065%3AComment%3A37571&xg_source=msg_com_forum#3468065Comment37571">
There was a P-note paid to the MI company for MI that BofA purchased.
I'm in Nevada. My understanding is the lien holders may pursue the deficiency for up to 6 years after a short sale if the deficiency wasn't waived. If I were a lawyer I would use the file name of "nodef" just the way you suggested and twist it around enough so collection would be questionable. :-)

Steve Marx said:
Barbara,

Great post! Thanks so much for attaching the letters! Did the sellers take a P-Note on the second letter?

Notice in the bottom right corner the letter reads "no def", no deficiency.

Talk to an attorney because I have had several tell me in my state that unless they specifically reserve their right to pursue a deficiency, the short payoff acceptance with out specific reservation creates enough ambiguity that the rest of the debt may not be collectible. Better off getting the waive the right to deficiency language but this letter is a small miracle. Great job! I am really curious though if there was a P-Note on that deal?

Thanks!


Barbara J. Rice said:
I'm attempting to attach the two documents that show a BofA approval WITH the deficiency language and one WITHOUT. As I noted before though, even though the langugage is removed is does not release the deficiency. See the attachment. The first document is WITH the language is the second is WITHOUT.

Barbara J. Rice said:
Yes, I will provide a copy (sans client info) within 24 hours. It was a big deal for my client (even though I told him it didn't extinguish the deficiency) so we just kept badgering BofA. ALSO, I was working with a high-level negotiator so she probably had a little more wiggle room than most.

Steve Marx said:
I'm in with Paul. I want to see one. I do not think that BOA will make the change. This is a huge issue that people in my area have been trying to deal with for a while now. Any other lender, no problem. BOA, big problem. We handle our BOA short sale completely differently because of this single issue.




Paul Kuriatnyk said:
Jeff,
Would you be able to post a copy of one of those approval letters with the deficiency verbiage removed? I am curious to see one without it... I have been told that they do not exist. Would also love to hear how you got them to remove it.
Thanks a million
-Paul

Jeff Payne said:
the last 3 that I closed had the language removed......

Barbara J. Rice said:
Al: I've done a number of BofA short sales and they will NOT change the language. Period. The best success I had was they deleted the deficiency language but that doesn't remove their right to pursue. BoA's verbal position (no, they won't put it in writing) is that they reserve the right to go after the deficiency but they don't intend to pursue unless they determine there was fraud committed in the course of the short sale. Good luck.

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