Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by joe beauchamp on July 20, 2010 at 5:09pm

Here again, that is a very myopic point of view. When an area is new to me, I ask because there are laws, etc., usually for good reason and I can be myopic until it is pointed out and I learn more. But, here again, you expect everyone's life to stop because you are doing a real estate sale. Think about the zillion laws that regulate even spitting. If it were fraud, etc., don't you think someone would have made a law to say so? Do you think that there is a reason that what you say is not the way life works? Are you going to disallow the seller's daughter from selling her car because you are doing a real estate sale? Think about it - it is real estate, not personal property sale - remember those rules in the real estate guide to get your license? They made this sort of thing pretty clear. And generally for good reason.

So, here's a simple one. Why does BofA throw out the short sale if you lose a buyer and get another one? Hint: fraud. Well, that didn't make sense to me until I asked someone who's been around. No, you can find out on your own. Now, if BofA will kill a short sale because of that, but won't touch someone selling/buying personal property, do you really think you have some fraud going on that BofA hasn't already considered and dismissed?

It "looks" strange because you have a closing on your mind and everything has to be part of the closing to you - easy trap to fall into...

Stephanie Lim said:

If it's not disclosed on the HUD I wouldn't go near it.

Permalink Reply by Bryant Tutas on July 21, 2010 at 12:28am

Joe. What makes fraud fraud is the intent to deceive. Certainly there is no issue with anybody selling whatever they want to whomever they want at what ever price they agree upon. BUT if it's being done to deceive the lender by passing funds outside of closing then it's fraud.

The issue as stated in the post is that the buyer won't close without someone giving him $5,000. This would be an undisclosed kickback. That makes that $5,000 part of the transaction and therefore it needs to be disclosed on the closing statement. Now having said that I'm sure these "outside of closing" deals happen everyday. I'm also sure that nothing will ever happen to these folks for doing it. BUT...that does not determine whether it's fraud or not.

And of course as REALTORS(R) we are prohibited by our Code of Ethics from participating in such transactions.

However I am NOT an Attorney nor do I play one on TV. Please seek legal advice.

CoE preamble:

They identify and take steps, through enforcement of this Code of Ethics and by assisting appropriate regulatory bodies, to eliminate practices which may damage the public or which might discredit or bring dishonor to the real estate profession. REALTORS® having direct personal knowledge of conduct that may violate the Code of Ethics involving misappropriation of client or customer funds or property, willful discrimination, or fraud resulting in substantial economic harm, bring such matters to the attention of the appropriate Board or Association of REALTORS®. (Amended 1/00)

joe beauchamp said:

Here again, that is a very myopic point of view. When an area is new to me, I ask because there are laws, etc., usually for good reason and I can be myopic until it is pointed out and I learn more. But, here again, you expect everyone's life to stop because you are doing a real estate sale. Think about the zillion laws that regulate even spitting. If it were fraud, etc., don't you think someone would have made a law to say so? Do you think that there is a reason that what you say is not the way life works? Are you going to disallow the seller's daughter from selling her car because you are doing a real estate sale? Think about it - it is real estate, not personal property sale - remember those rules in the real estate guide to get your license? They made this sort of thing pretty clear. And generally for good reason.

So, here's a simple one. Why does BofA throw out the short sale if you lose a buyer and get another one? Hint: fraud. Well, that didn't make sense to me until I asked someone who's been around. No, you can find out on your own. Now, if BofA will kill a short sale because of that, but won't touch someone selling/buying personal property, do you really think you have some fraud going on that BofA hasn't already considered and dismissed?

It "looks" strange because you have a closing on your mind and everything has to be part of the closing to you - easy trap to fall into...

Stephanie Lim said:

If it's not disclosed on the HUD I wouldn't go near it.

Permalink Reply by Stephanie Lim on July 21, 2010 at 12:49am

Joe-I disagree. This isn't the transfer of personal property the way it was described by Frank. It's a buyer demanding a $5k kickback or they will not purchase the real estate. That makes the $5k a part of the real estate deal and it has to be disclosed on the HUD. If you come up with something to call it...say the $5k is for the bed in the master...with the intent to make it look like a personal property transaction...smells like fraud to me. I think the lienholder would be very interested in the seller, who has no money, coming up with $5k to give to the buyer to get them to proceed with the deal. Sorry--my original response about the HUD stands. If it wasn't disclosed on the HUD I simply could not be a part of it.

joe beauchamp said:

Here again, that is a very myopic point of view. When an area is new to me, I ask because there are laws, etc., usually for good reason and I can be myopic until it is pointed out and I learn more. But, here again, you expect everyone's life to stop because you are doing a real estate sale. Think about the zillion laws that regulate even spitting. If it were fraud, etc., don't you think someone would have made a law to say so? Do you think that there is a reason that what you say is not the way life works? Are you going to disallow the seller's daughter from selling her car because you are doing a real estate sale? Think about it - it is real estate, not personal property sale - remember those rules in the real estate guide to get your license? They made this sort of thing pretty clear. And generally for good reason.

So, here's a simple one. Why does BofA throw out the short sale if you lose a buyer and get another one? Hint: fraud. Well, that didn't make sense to me until I asked someone who's been around. No, you can find out on your own. Now, if BofA will kill a short sale because of that, but won't touch someone selling/buying personal property, do you really think you have some fraud going on that BofA hasn't already considered and dismissed?

It "looks" strange because you have a closing on your mind and everything has to be part of the closing to you - easy trap to fall into...

Stephanie Lim said:

If it's not disclosed on the HUD I wouldn't go near it.

Permalink Reply by Frank Mir on July 24, 2010 at 3:59am

Thank everyone for the comments. After a lot of prayer and not feeling right about doing anything that isn't transparent i talked to the negioater directly and to my surprise she told me that if we want to contribute to the deal that it shouldn't be a problem. We would just cut the buyer's price by the $5,000 and bring the cash to the closing. We even asked her if she could try and get the deficiency waived since we were contributing to the deal. We have a senior negioater on the file since this is the 4th go around with same property and it seems to be moving really fast. She actually had me on the phone for a 1/2 hour the other day while she was working on the file. Even asked me if we could close by August 14th?? So it just goes to show that honesty is the best policy. When your desperate Satan will use that to his advantage.....

Permalink Reply by Frank Mir on August 20, 2010 at 7:10am

Praise God, it pays to tell the truth. Received approval in less than 30 days with no deficiency and full release in the letter. Our friends at BOA were showing i had an outside second which wasn't the case. The payoff on the HUD was higher than the approval letter by $3,000. Now they have to re-issue a new approval letter with the correct #'s..............This has been a crazy ride and it's stilln not over. Now i am waiting for Mr. kickback to fill out his HOA application and pay his fee's so we can get an Estopel letter and close this thing out!!!!!!!!!

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