This might be considered blasphemy here ?
but I've actually done some digging and determined that if you perform even a remotely
passable administrative process you can essentially get anything you need from the bank.
I neglect to address these banks / mortgage companies as lenders as my research has
determined what they actually do is an exchange. In this exchange scenario the bank takes
absolutely ZERO risk, without risk there is no consideration, and without consideration there
is no contract. A contract is not created when it is made, a contract is created when it's paid.
Thus banks cannot make any contract for consideration. They take a promissory note made
payable to you and either cash it or sell it, in return you get the home, BUT they charge you
interest over the course of 20-30 years. An example of this process is just like your calling me and saying "Hey
Keith, I need to borrow $10,000...So I say "Great I can do that what
kind of collateral do you have. You say " Well I've got a diamond ring it's worth $10,000.
You give me the ring, I sell it, put the money in my checking account then write you a
check for $10,000 along with a contract that says your going to pay me
back $10,000 with interest for the next 20 years. What we just did was
an exchange, I didn't loan you anything. That's what you did with the
mortgage you signed. Wake up folks !! If you want to get to the bottom of "If anything was actually lent
to you at all" write me at [email protected]...
passable administrative process you can essentially get anything you need from the bank.
I neglect to address these banks / mortgage companies as lenders as my research has
determined what they actually do is an exchange. In this exchange scenario the bank takes
absolutely ZERO risk, without risk there is no consideration, and without consideration there
is no contract. A contract is not created when it is made, a contract is created when it's paid.
Thus banks cannot make any contract for consideration. They take a promissory note made
payable to you and either cash it or sell it, in return you get the home, BUT they charge you
interest over the course of 20-30 years. An example of this process is just like your calling me and saying "Hey
Keith, I need to borrow $10,000...So I say "Great I can do that what
kind of collateral do you have. You say " Well I've got a diamond ring it's worth $10,000.
You give me the ring, I sell it, put the money in my checking account then write you a
check for $10,000 along with a contract that says your going to pay me
back $10,000 with interest for the next 20 years. What we just did was
an exchange, I didn't loan you anything. That's what you did with the
mortgage you signed. Wake up folks !! If you want to get to the bottom of "If anything was actually lent
to you at all" write me at [email protected]...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Missy Horst on
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???
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Payne on
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+1 ?????
Missy Horst said:??? -
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Permalink Reply by joe beauchamp on
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Ain't it great when you are so far removed from the actual issues that everything is so obvious, clear and absolutely black and white? HA! Well, keep them comedy postcards comin' in!
[I can see by the ???'s that the process of logic is inhibiting the acceptance of this diatribe by thinking members who are used to: A) a situation; B) a need for a solution; or C) a solution. Well, not one here - just if you want to get to the ...uh... bottom.... email... Hmmmmmmmm bottom of what, again? ;-)
In a way, it's refreshing - like how Hoss kept his tastebuds enlivened during the pancake eating contest - after a while, he put vinegar on them instead of syrup. This is that "vinegar" interlude between SS issues...] -
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Permalink Reply by Peggy K Fowler on
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I'll bite ~ and the point?
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He is a spammer - I googled his email address and he posts this stuff EVERYWHERE, hoping to sell his products.
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Permalink Reply by Robin M. Willis on
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Besides the spam issue, his example didn't apply because the bank doesn't resell the house (aka ring). It sells the note. Is there a way to flag ridiculous posts like this?
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Too much effort and not worth it - besides, what did this cost us? In the meantime, it showed me a couple of things -
who trips across this and is kind/generous enough to try to figure out if there is someone here with a real issue, just a poor communication or knowledge skill;
people who (must) understand that this is garbage , but yet put the effort into disproving some part of it {ahem..does the shoe fit? HA!}
Oh yeah, and it is a non-problem - someone isn't hurting from some stupid thing that these lumbering inconsiderate banks are doing to them - so it is a "break" from the....uh... pain..
See? Not all that bad. Uh, but I would be fine with NOT seeing another one. ;-)
Robin Willis said:Besides the spam issue, his example didn't apply because the bank doesn't resell the house (aka ring). It sells the note. Is there a way to flag ridiculous posts like this? -
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Permalink Reply by Keith Crawford on
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So Robin first why are you so defensive? A poster(me) makes a statement created to provoke thought and the best thing to do is dismiss it without actually looking at the facts of the matter. Have you ever thought you might be on the wrong track ?
To all those in denial, if the banks AREN'T stealing your promissory and utilizing it to purchase the property in their own name and renting the property back to you then why is filing a petition/suit against the alleged lender so effective at forestalling a foreclosure, actually it stops it in it's tracks. Why exactly do you think this might be ?
Most of the time, like the IRS a mortgage company will take a defaulted contract to a court clerk for a Writ of Assistance and have the sheriff come along to drag the homeowner out and change the locks, again then why do you think a preemptive court action (petition/ suit) against the alleged lender has this effect ? I mean using your logic this petition is just a nuisance, the bank has an iron clad foreclosure, nothing can stop ? Yet a simple petition
in court or even a qualified written request (I've got a great Qualified Written Request BTW) sends these banks into panic mode. I don't know about you but to me that sends up a big red flag. A good straight forward deal with a binding contract should give a person or business peace of mind, any inquiries therein from either party shouldn't cause chaos to one or the other ?
Perhaps it's because when you deal in theft through deception occasionally you come across someone with the guts and knowledge of what does and does not make for a binding contract and they take you to task over it.
BTW if you bother to look at these alleged mortgage contracts only one party has applied a blue wet ink signature
in order to create a bi-lateral binding contract TWO PARTIES must sign, these mortgage contracts are unilateral, just like a credit card application.
I've assisted in filing many petitions in courts of colorable law, what I'm suggesting is using substantive law or the agreement of the parties as a claim to title. This is not something these alleged lenders want to see because for them to answer this affidavit is perjury. I mean ask yourself, how is it an attorney who has absolutely no knowledge of my mortgage contract or any circumstances thereof, answering a petition from me with specificity, rebutting my allegations point for point with evidence ? They cannot without a first hand witness, anything they might say is heresay, it's inadmissable, and it is contemptable to the court and worthy of sanction.
Another thing to ponder here is the promissory note you signed at closing, The individual who promises to pay is the maker (you) and the person to whom payment is promised is called the payee or holder(bank). If signed by the maker(you) a promissory note is a negotiable instrument. It contains an unconditional promise to pay (it's a check) a certain sum to the order of a specifically named person or to bearer—that is, to any individual presenting the note. A promissory note can be either payable on demand or at a specific time. If you'll notice the promissory is made in your name, it is endorsed over to the bank. If the bank were using it's funds wouldn't the check (promissory note) be drawn from the banks account or some bank account ?
Something else these alleged lenders don't want you to see is a demand for a certified accounting of their books concerning a particular alleged loan for the day it closed. These balances are kept bank to bank so the records according to the alleged loan number are or should be readily accessible. How is it that a bank can make a loan from assets (which they do not) and not show a change debit/credit on the books at the end of the day. They can't because to operate a bank within the public realm they must balance the books day to day as a matter of law. Why is it every time I've made an affidavit of demand for these certified accounting records the bank defaults without fail ? It shouldn't be a problem to allow a borrower see exactly where the funds for his loan actually originated should it ? See if the books balance, and they shouldn't as you just borrowed $250,000, how do they unless an outside CHECK / PROMISSORY NOTE was utilized to start and finish the deal ? If this check / promissory had the banks name thereon and the funds drawn from assets do you think the books would balance ? Not on you life, Wake up folks !!!!!!!
This presents a problem. If that is the case then what about my loan ? Well it seems that these banks have a couple of tricks they apply for just this occasion, they're called demand accounts and one was created especially for you and your promissory note, although you weren't aware of it. This is a way to manipulate YOUR FUNDS in just about any way the bank see's fit. Another way is to just give the promissory to the trustee ATTORNEY and let him depose himself of it at his bank. Ask yourself WHY ????
Did you get a receipt when you bought the house, a receipt is supposed to detail the amount, what was bought and basically what was used within the transaction, cash, credit..etc..etc..? Nope...If you ask the bank for an invoice (this would describe the transaction) concerning the mortgage they look at you like you just stepped off a space ship ?
When you establish an account at a bank, you have to depose (deposit to bank) yourself of something, check, cash etc...In return you receive bank credit. Congrats you just became the newest member of a public institution.
There's a difference though, banks operate under money of account principles and you operate under money of exchange principles. You work for money of exchange, in this respect your money has value, a bank balances the books, this is it's primary objective. Before a bank extends anything for credit or value, it will require your signature, you even sign your ATM card for crying out loud !!
Study negotiable instruments and commercial paper. This is all the US Treasury deals in. You received a FED wire
when you bought your home. FED as in FEDERAL RESERVE. To the US Treasury through the FED or the IRS your promissory note is a CHECK, YOUR CHECK, NOT THE BANKS. Study the history of the United States. We're not living in 1932, we're living under banking rules set out in 1933. All substance was taken out of commerce, what do you think ever happened to the common law courts, they were obliterated because they were courts of substance not fiction. In 1933 the US constituted all US public debt, public policy created what is today known as the Uniform Commercial Code and it is statute law in all 50 states and internationally. Why do you think that if you receive a ticket for speeding it stays on the books for alot longer than the 2 year statute of limitations ?
It's because you never settled the account, you never brought the courts books to zero, even if you thought you paid it..IT'S STILL THERE ON YOUR RECORD ? It's what an insurance company will look at and raise your car insurance rate, because of all these tickets you never cleared...WAKE UP !!!!! Why not clear it, set the courts record of accounting for YOU to ZERO..It takes an affidavit, all these things utilize tools your not using if you were you wouldn't be on this site in the first place.
What is the definition of insanity ? Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.
I want to help people learn and do something constructive if you want to call that spam be my guest.
If that's the case then I would also assume these same people couldn't answer even one of the inquiries I've made in the preceeding text. They have no clue. I know that what I do is effective because it asks hard direct questions that should be easily answered and they are not. This creates the breach I knew existed anyway it just ceritifies
the proceeding so that this document can be used in court if necessary or given to the IRS for the collection of my check. or can be securitized and sold....The choice belongs to the holder of the document.
You can deride the things I write or have written but you can't answer my question and that should be very telling to anyone reading your replies to these questions. If you want to make an honest inquiry write me at
[email protected] you prefer to keep doing the same things over and over again disregard this post
joe beauchamp said:Too much effort and not worth it - besides, what did this cost us? In the meantime, it showed me a couple of things -
who trips across this and is kind/generous enough to try to figure out if there is someone here with a real issue, just a poor communication or knowledge skill;
people who (must) understand that this is garbage , but yet put the effort into disproving some part of it {ahem..does the shoe fit? HA!}
Oh yeah, and it is a non-problem - someone isn't hurting from some stupid thing that these lumbering inconsiderate banks are doing to them - so it is a "break" from the....uh... pain..
See? Not all that bad. Uh, but I would be fine with NOT seeing another one. ;-)
Robin Willis said:Besides the spam issue, his example didn't apply because the bank doesn't resell the house (aka ring). It sells the note. Is there a way to flag ridiculous posts like this? -
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Permalink Reply by Bryant Tutas on
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Hi Keith. Your participation on this site is welcomed. However please remember this site is all about helping each other with short sales. Your post is questioning the legalities of the entire mortgage lending practice. While I'm sure you stand strongly behind your opinion it's not really a topic that has anything to do with what we are here for. Thanks
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Keith,
Why did you characterize me as defensive? All I did was point out that the analogy you made in your original post did not coincide with the actual reality of what is involved in purchasing a home. Because this analogy was the premise on which you based your entire post, it seemed reasonable to me that it should at least be accurate and apply to the situation you were addressing.
Also, as a professional who works in the real estate industry and specializes in working with distressed homeowners, I have seen many people who claim to be able to stop a foreclosure by filing a petition in court or by requesting that the bank produce the original note. In my years of experience these have proven to be smoke and mirrors scams every time. Forgive me if you are not running a scam, but you ARE here trying to sell your services rather than assisting people in negotiating short sales (the stated purpose of this site).
Also, the settlement statement (or HUD-1) shows all monies transferred. Why would you need an additional "receipt"? You seem to be confuing a loan on assets that a bank owns with what is really going on in a home sale. During a real estate transaction a bank is making a loan to someone and places a lien on collateral that the mortgagor owns. Once the loan is paid off the lien is removed and the property is once again owned "free and clear".
You may not agree with the way our monetary system operates, but advocating that people get out of their mortgages on a technicality hardly seems above-board. And your quote about insanity is frequently used by people who want someone to try their new scheme. But it doesn't really apply when you're speaking to a group of agents who are actually making headway by working with and communicating with the banks. Again, you are here to sell your services, but don't seem to have a grasp on what is actually going on in the short sale arena.
Keith Crawford said:So Robin first why are you so defensive? A poster(me) makes a statement created to provoke thought and the best thing to do is dismiss it without actually looking at the facts of the matter. Have you ever thought you might be on the wrong track ?
To all those in denial, if the banks AREN'T stealing your promissory and utilizing it to purchase the property in their own name and renting the property back to you then why is filing a petition/suit against the alleged lender so effective at forestalling a foreclosure, actually it stops it in it's tracks. Why exactly do you think this might be ?
Most of the time, like the IRS a mortgage company will take a defaulted contract to a court clerk for a Writ of Assistance and have the sheriff come along to drag the homeowner out and change the locks, again then why do you think a preemptive court action (petition/ suit) against the alleged lender has this effect ? I mean using your logic this petition is just a nuisance, the bank has an iron clad foreclosure, nothing can stop ? Yet a simple petition
in court or even a qualified written request (I've got a great Qualified Written Request BTW) sends these banks into panic mode. I don't know about you but to me that sends up a big red flag. A good straight forward deal with a binding contract should give a person or business peace of mind, any inquiries therein from either party shouldn't cause chaos to one or the other ?
Perhaps it's because when you deal in theft through deception occasionally you come across someone with the guts and knowledge of what does and does not make for a binding contract and they take you to task over it.
BTW if you bother to look at these alleged mortgage contracts only one party has applied a blue wet ink signature
in order to create a bi-lateral binding contract TWO PARTIES must sign, these mortgage contracts are unilateral, just like a credit card application.
I've assisted in filing many petitions in courts of colorable law, what I'm suggesting is using substantive law or the agreement of the parties as a claim to title. This is not something these alleged lenders want to see because for them to answer this affidavit is perjury. I mean ask yourself, how is it an attorney who has absolutely no knowledge of my mortgage contract or any circumstances thereof, answering a petition from me with specificity, rebutting my allegations point for point with evidence ? They cannot without a first hand witness, anything they might say is heresay, it's inadmissable, and it is contemptable to the court and worthy of sanction.
Another thing to ponder here is the promissory note you signed at closing, The individual who promises to pay is the maker (you) and the person to whom payment is promised is called the payee or holder(bank). If signed by the maker(you) a promissory note is a negotiable instrument. It contains an unconditional promise to pay (it's a check) a certain sum to the order of a specifically named person or to bearer—that is, to any individual presenting the note. A promissory note can be either payable on demand or at a specific time. If you'll notice the promissory is made in your name, it is endorsed over to the bank. If the bank were using it's funds wouldn't the check (promissory note) be drawn from the banks account or some bank account ?
Something else these alleged lenders don't want you to see is a demand for a certified accounting of their books concerning a particular alleged loan for the day it closed. These balances are kept bank to bank so the records according to the alleged loan number are or should be readily accessible. How is it that a bank can make a loan from assets (which they do not) and not show a change debit/credit on the books at the end of the day. They can't because to operate a bank within the public realm they must balance the books day to day as a matter of law. Why is it every time I've made an affidavit of demand for these certified accounting records the bank defaults without fail ? It shouldn't be a problem to allow a borrower see exactly where the funds for his loan actually originated should it ? See if the books balance, and they shouldn't as you just borrowed $250,000, how do they unless an outside CHECK / PROMISSORY NOTE was utilized to start and finish the deal ? If this check / promissory had the banks name thereon and the funds drawn from assets do you think the books would balance ? Not on you life, Wake up folks !!!!!!!
This presents a problem. If that is the case then what about my loan ? Well it seems that these banks have a couple of tricks they apply for just this occasion, they're called demand accounts and one was created especially for you and your promissory note, although you weren't aware of it. This is a way to manipulate YOUR FUNDS in just about any way the bank see's fit. Another way is to just give the promissory to the trustee ATTORNEY and let him depose himself of it at his bank. Ask yourself WHY ????
Did you get a receipt when you bought the house, a receipt is supposed to detail the amount, what was bought and basically what was used within the transaction, cash, credit..etc..etc..? Nope...If you ask the bank for an invoice (this would describe the transaction) concerning the mortgage they look at you like you just stepped off a space ship ?
When you establish an account at a bank, you have to depose (deposit to bank) yourself of something, check, cash etc...In return you receive bank credit. Congrats you just became the newest member of a public institution.
There's a difference though, banks operate under money of account principles and you operate under money of exchange principles. You work for money of exchange, in this respect your money has value, a bank balances the books, this is it's primary objective. Before a bank extends anything for credit or value, it will require your signature, you even sign your ATM card for crying out loud !!
Study negotiable instruments and commercial paper. This is all the US Treasury deals in. You received a FED wire
when you bought your home. FED as in FEDERAL RESERVE. To the US Treasury through the FED or the IRS your promissory note is a CHECK, YOUR CHECK, NOT THE BANKS. Study the history of the United States. We're not living in 1932, we're living under banking rules set out in 1933. All substance was taken out of commerce, what do you think ever happened to the common law courts, they were obliterated because they were courts of substance not fiction. In 1933 the US constituted all US public debt, public policy created what is today known as the Uniform Commercial Code and it is statute law in all 50 states and internationally. Why do you think that if you receive a ticket for speeding it stays on the books for alot longer than the 2 year statute of limitations ?
It's because you never settled the account, you never brought the courts books to zero, even if you thought you paid it..IT'S STILL THERE ON YOUR RECORD ? It's what an insurance company will look at and raise your car insurance rate, because of all these tickets you never cleared...WAKE UP !!!!! Why not clear it, set the courts record of accounting for YOU to ZERO..It takes an affidavit, all these things utilize tools your not using if you were you wouldn't be on this site in the first place.
What is the definition of insanity ? Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.
I want to help people learn and do something constructive if you want to call that spam be my guest.
If that's the case then I would also assume these same people couldn't answer even one of the inquiries I've made in the preceeding text. They have no clue. I know that what I do is effective because it asks hard direct questions that should be easily answered and they are not. This creates the breach I knew existed anyway it just ceritifies
the proceeding so that this document can be used in court if necessary or given to the IRS for the collection of my check. or can be securitized and sold....The choice belongs to the holder of the document.
You can deride the things I write or have written but you can't answer my question and that should be very telling to anyone reading your replies to these questions. If you want to make an honest inquiry write me at
[email protected] you prefer to keep doing the same things over and over again disregard this post
joe beauchamp said:Too much effort and not worth it - besides, what did this cost us? In the meantime, it showed me a couple of things -
who trips across this and is kind/generous enough to try to figure out if there is someone here with a real issue, just a poor communication or knowledge skill;
people who (must) understand that this is garbage , but yet put the effort into disproving some part of it {ahem..does the shoe fit? HA!}
Oh yeah, and it is a non-problem - someone isn't hurting from some stupid thing that these lumbering inconsiderate banks are doing to them - so it is a "break" from the....uh... pain..
See? Not all that bad. Uh, but I would be fine with NOT seeing another one. ;-)
Robin Willis said:Besides the spam issue, his example didn't apply because the bank doesn't resell the house (aka ring). It sells the note. Is there a way to flag ridiculous posts like this? -
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Oh, I just **have** to keep watching this.. A bunch of impractical gook and an actually semi-discussion afterwards? HA!
Well, I have no real problem dismissing the original. Just unsubstantiated misapplication of logic. Gee, if you disagree with how a mortgage is legally applied, then don't enter into one and don't buy a house. You don't go saying "ureka! I won the lottery" after the fact because you didn't understand the legal machinations surrounding real estate transactions.
I would have some more interest if the posting actually had specific suggestions, etc. rather than a circular list of platitudes and just some general "yeah, that's right...whatever he said..??" Regardless, I'm surprised that there actually was some followup - despite it being pretty unfocused -- ooo... what's next? ;-)
Bryant Tutas said:Hi Keith. Your participation on this site is welcomed. However please remember this site is all about helping each other with short sales. Your post is questioning the legalities of the entire mortgage lending practice. While I'm sure you stand strongly behind your opinion it's not really a topic that has anything to do with what we are here for. Thanks -
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Joe, if this were Facebook, I would "like" your comment. ;)
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