Short Sale - AltiSource - HubZu and Ocwen Partnership Wrought with Fraud

I am heated up and ticked off at the recent merger and bullying of Ocwen.  I want contact information for every Florida litigating attorney.

I am the listing agent on a short sale that I have worked for over a year. The first contract would not meet Ocwen's non-provided counter.  All that was stated is that the buyer must come up significantly but would not state to what price.  Let's just say the buyer walked, who wouldn't with those kind of pricing games. 

So I instantly receive an offer at market value from an investor willing to pay cash. 

I submit the offer and about a week later I receive an email from AltiSource stating I and the seller must sign authorization paperwork allowing Altisource to act as the processor on behalf of the seller and that we must submit the property to auction on HubZu for additional bidding.  The seller already signed off on an offer!  Furthermore, I am told unless we sign this paperwork the buyers offer will not even be considered and the application to short sale will be denied.  So this puts the seller in a legal bind.  Oh by the way buyer, seller is not breaching contract with you, Ocwen refuses to look at your offer and even though it has been signed off on you must go through an open bidding process.  Please understand the seller's hands are tied and we request you do not find the seller at fault or cause seller additional financial distress by going after any legal outlets.

In the paperwork form Altisource it states that I must provide the processor RSHH a portion of the monies received, buyer's agent a less than average of monies received and I myself will get what I do not bargain for.  Next it states that if I represent both sides of the transaction I must provide the buyer agent's portion to the net indebtedness instead of receiving it myself.

Are you kidding me.....The short sale lender is supposed to be subject to the contract and the owner of the property is still the owner who signed a listing contract with me, not Ocwen. The seller has the right to choose who to go into an offer with. Neither I nor the seller are willing to sign the paperwork and are inquiring on the legalities of this bullying. 

Where does Ocwen get off acting as the seller and dictating who the seller can go into contract with.  These banks need to have additional regulation.  They cannot just arbitrarily insert themselves into the contract acting on behalf of the owner and deciding who the seller gets to go into contract with. This is strong arming.  They also cannot dictate to the seller who they choose to use to process the short sale and dictate I must pay this group.  This is not in the best interest of the seller and in my opinion violates Respa. 

Does anyone else have input on this?  If you have some hotlines I can call and file formal complaints please pass them on. We have submitted to 3 trial attorneys and have placed a call with FAR.

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Comment by Jim McCormack on December 19, 2013 at 3:33pm
I am working an Ocwen Short Sale and yesterday received a verbal counter from the rep pending a few remaining docs from the Borrower. This evening I get a denial letter saying that the short sale did not follow protocol because it has to be run through Altisource/Hubzu. I was only informed of this requirement via the denial letter despite at least 5 conversations with their loss mitigation department before the offer was executed. I believe servicers have the right to require certain things be done to market a short sale property if that is what their loan investor client wants, but it needs to be disclosed to the Borrower or their agent during the 1st conversation about a short sale, not after a contract is signed. I have to dispute Mr. Singh's rosy picture that Alrisource is proactively reaching out to the Borrowers to reduce foreclosures. How can they when we are not even hearing about them until the short sale is already well underway and a contract signed. If the are as helpful and proactive as Mr. Singh indicates then shouldn't the Borrower be hearing from them immediately after they go 30 to 60 days delinquent? My Borrowers tried for months to keep their house and no one from Altisource ever contacted them. A more accurate description of this situation is that Altisource/Hubzu approached OCWEN and told them that they would handle short sales for them for "free" by taking money away from already overworked and underpaid short sale Realtors. I am certain a kickback from Altisource to Ocwen was offered as well. Contrary to Mr. Singh's comments, the best way to create more foreclosures is to further dis-incentivize short sale Realtors by reducing their compensation and creating uncertainty for buyers via their now it's your house, but it's not because we want to auction it out from under you. The best way to reduce default losses would be to obtain accurate AS IS property valuations and offer above 6% commissions to the few qualified Realtors who are strong enough to handle short sales and wade through the utter incompetence at the banks.
Comment by DIMITRI PETROVSKY on October 17, 2013 at 5:46am

I have a question for Mr. Singh. Is altisource or ocwen going to pay for competent legal counsel for a seller when they are sued by a purchaser for breach of contract? I am in NYC and these cash buyers here have plenty of time and money to file a lis pendens for specific performance which can tie up a property for a year or more in court. What will happen to an already distressed seller in a case like this? Take it one step further, a short sale was submitted to Ocwen in august through the former GMAC offices. BPO was completed, counter offer was made on August 20, buyer accepted counter offer which came on Ocwen email address, then in the beginning of September file gets service released to "Ocwen" and we are told file must be re-submitted. Then 3 days later we get the alti source email about this process. Now the buyer has already filed a lis pendens and no way is he backing down on this. so a vacant house is sitting there accumulating more costs, violations from being distressed and unsafe, who is going to represent this man in court, some mystical lion? You want a program like this to work? Well make it clear to homeowners that this has to be done at time of listing, not after marketing a property, signing contracts. How can a short sale be rejected if it wasn't even reviewed? This whole process opens sellers up to more legal trouble than they are already in. So when people start getting sued for breach of contract, misrepresentation and realtors for violating fiduciary trust what is ocwen/altisource going to do since they created this mess?

Comment by Jeff Payne on October 15, 2013 at 2:41am

Saurabh, I am not going to read your rambling post.  All I can say is that regardless of your view on dual agency or how you think a short sale works with HUBZU, your opinion is very misguided as an employee of OCWEN.  I believe that you mentioned that you are in India ( a problem in itself) and you really dont understand our culture or our laws.  In the state of Florida, I can represent buyer and seller LEGALLY regardless of what you think of it.    You may think it is fair that the lender can take a higher offer if it comes along, problem is that when they do they are interfering with a LEGAL and BINDING CONTRACT.   HUBZU interferes with a legal document no matter how many unicorns and mythical beasts you want to dream up, it is still not legal.    

You need to get a grip  and come to the reality of the situation that the agents that are working short sales are the people who are trying to keep their clients safe and out of foreclosure, HUBZU, Altisource (Outsource), OCWEN and RHSS are not really helping in my opinion.   Save the rhetoric of your customer is important.  If you really want to see what goes on, come on over to America and spend the day with a short sale agent and you will be disgusted with the way OCWEN and HUBZU handle their business.  

Comment by Saurabh Singh on October 14, 2013 at 10:31pm

Everything is merely a perception. If we go into a short sale realizing that it may be rejected and then if I am presented with an second opportunity to make it a success,  my reaction to it would  be different. If I go into a short sale transaction setting my priority to preventing a foreclosure, I would not be disappointed. However, if we are looking at short sale transactions as an opportunity to profit from dual agency at the cost of the lender, I will be extremely disappointed. I have another disclosure to make - I am against dual agency. Even if a real estate agent is representing both, the seller and buyer in a transaction,  I am sure that it is only fair that he let the seller/lender accept a better offer if it comes along. If a better offer is found through HUBZU, a good realtor must not object to it being accepted. If we perceive that RHSS take 1.5% on a transaction where we have done everything,  then we are hurt. However,  if we perceive that the 1.5% really goes to prevent a foreclosure,  then we can be happy.

The difference is the motivation. One may want to go to heaven,  then another questions if he would be happy in heaven when others suffer in hell. This program will reduce foreclosures. It will help countless home owners. If we look at it that way and participate,  we can be happy. If I think I will move to a different department if there are no short sales and earn more money, I would be like a person who wants to go to heaven but does not care if others burn in hell. If all such people end up in heaven, I am sure it will turn into hell. That seems logical to me.

There is more to this. There is a story. Once upon a time in India there was a famine. People were dying of hunger. One volunteer set up a  food stall so those who needed help could come to him. Another went around the whole town distributing food to even those who were too weak to walk up to the other social worker's food stall. I sincerely believe that the Altisource negotiation team want to follow the second volunteer's approach. A realtor comes in when there is already an explicit need to do a short sale, however,  Altisource through their negotiation team are creating grounds to deal with troubled mortgages at an earlier stage. They have the ability to make a huge difference. I am not8t sure many people see that yet.

Many people file for bankruptcy not just because of financial difficulties but also because they are tired of debt collection phone calls and cant find a viable alternative. Altisource negotiators are saying, "Direct those calls to us. We will deal with them, so you can be at peace." They are not just looking to prevent foreclosures but also default, at a very early stage. Things will become clearer in the days to come and I am sure borrowers whose loans are serviced by Altisource's clients will lead happier lives. 

Customers are very important.  When they see someone is driven by the motivation to help them rather that earn from them, they are happier. They would rather deal with the prince. Of course we need to make money, but customer's interests come first. 

Thay says, "That flowers wilt does not cause suffering. The unreasonable expectation that flowers not wilt causes suffering." When we understand how REO properties are acquired, we can understand why the seller is unaware of any issues associated with the property. We review and sign a contract which states the same. We sign an REO Advisory which states the same. If we are expecting something else, it is an unreasonable expectation. However, I hope foreclosures stop. Then there will be no REOs and no confusion associated with them.

If we are clever and the motivation is right we can do better. Real estate agents can innovate or diversify and improve margins. I know some realtors in California act as closing agents to improve earnings.  Some provide property preservation services. A little bit of work and an REO can fetch better value. With that logic many are flipping homes.

If we see how things are connected,  we can create more opportunities. 

-------------------------------------

Saurabh Singh is a student of the Vietnamese monk Thich Nhat Hanh. Any opinion expressed in this post are his personal views and are not endorsed by his employer. 

Comment by Les West on October 14, 2013 at 4:55am

I don't understand the nonsense being posted by Altisource's employee.... why?  This thread is about selling property, it is not about some metaphysical fantasy game of riddles and fairy tales involving princes and lions, Perhaps someone has played "World of Warcraft" once too often? 

And yes Bryant, good points.  I'd add that this is about lack of disclosure all around, including conditions of sale and even issues with the property itself, such as title issues.

The property I refer to is an REO - not a short sale.  And as a straight REO sale, I find it shocking that Ocwen (who by the way is reluctant to reveal its association with Hubzu) may insist that the property must be sold via Hubzu.  Not only that, but Hubzu's "buy-it-now" price is $9k above their MLS listing price!  I assume that the Hubzu price tacks on the 3.5% and "technology fee" that the +buyer+ is forced to pay. 

To say that the Hubzu process lowers costs is only true for the seller, and the buyer is the one suffering here.  Since Ocwen wants to treat Hubzu as an ebay for property, Ocwen should take a cue from ebay: buyers rule.  Ocwen should understand that.  Without buyers, there is no market -- and Altisource with all its lions and princes, cannot change that fact.  

We can however talk about the elephant in the room (besides all the other issues with Hubzu) and that elephant is the 3.5% commission and technology fee that I as the buyer will be forced to pay by Ocwen for using Hubzu, and I'm not going to do it.

 Meanwhile I'm wondering why Altisource does not take more care about the content its employees publish in a public forum and when I get more time I will personally follow that up with a call to the corporation. Meanwhile, the postings here by that employee do not reflect well on Altisource or Hubzu for that matter, and I respectfully ask Ocwen to operate in a more professional manner overall because Hubzu is, apparently, a major virtual disaster for this market.

Comment by Bryant Tutas on October 14, 2013 at 12:55am

Hi Saurabh.the issue that I have with Ocwen requiring their deals to go through the auction is lack of disclosure. If commission is going to be reduced and the property is required to go on an auction site them let us know this BEFORE we spend time and money marketing a property to find a buyer.  And before we offer a co-broke commission to a buyer's agent that cannot be honored.

Surely Ocwen knows as soon as they pull the loan info up if the property will be required to go to auction or not. This is when we should be made aware of any hoops we will have to jump through.

But instead we are kept in the dark until AFTER we have done our jobs and found a buyer. Then we are told about the process and the reduction in our pay. How can this possible be construed as a "transparent transaction"? It's not. It's a trick and/or scheme and should be illegal. Not the auction process. The way it is being sprung on agents and causing agents and sellers to be placed in an awkward legal position when it comes to contracts that have already been negotiated and accepted by the parties to the contract..

The issue is in the implementation and the lack of disclosure.

Comment by Saurabh Singh on October 14, 2013 at 12:04am

Never mind if it is relevant or not. I would like to conclude with this story. Enjoy your day! 

"Good morning," the little prince said to him. "Your cigarette has gone out."

 "Three and two make five. Five and seven make twelve. Twelve and three make fifteen. Good morning. FIfteen and seven make twenty-two. Twenty-two and six make twenty-eight. I haven't time to light it again. Twenty-six and five make thirty-one. Phew ! Then that makes five-hundred-and-one-million, six-hundred-twenty-two-thousand, seven-hundred-thirty-one."

 "Five hundred million what?" asked the little prince.

 "Eh? Are you still there? Five-hundred-and-one million-- I can't stop... I have so much to do! I am concerned with matters of consequence. I don't amuse myself with balderdash. Two and five make seven..."

 

"Five-hundred-and-one million what?" repeated the little prince, who never in his life had let go of a question once he had asked it.

 The businessman raised his head.

 "During the fifty-four years that I have inhabited this planet, I have been disturbed only three times. The first time was twenty-two years ago, when some giddy goose fell from goodness knows where. He made the most frightful noise that resounded all ov er the place, and I made four mistakes in my addition. The second time, eleven years ago, I was disturbed by an attack of rheumatism. I don't get enough exercise. I have no time for loafing. The third time-- well, this is it! I was saying, then, five -hundred-and-one millions--"

 "Millions of what?"

 The businessman suddenly realized that there was no hope of being left in peace until he answered this question.

 "Millions of those little objects," he said, "which one sometimes sees in the sky."

 "Flies?"

"Oh, no. Little glittering objects."

 "Bees?"

 "Oh, no. Little golden objects that set lazy men to idle dreaming. As for me, I am concerned with matters of consequence. There is no time for idle dreaming in my life."

 "Ah! You mean the stars?"

 "Yes, that's it. The stars."

 "And what do you do with five-hundred millions of stars?"

 "Five-hundred-and-one million, six-hundred-twenty-two thousand, seven-hundred-thirty-one. I am concerned with matters of consequence: I am accurate."

 "And what do you do with these stars?"

 "What do I do with them?"

 "Yes."

 "Nothing. I own them."

 "You own the stars?"

 "Yes."

 "But I have already seen a king who--"

 "Kings do not own, they reign over. It is a very different matter."

 "And what good does it do you to own the stars?"

 "It does me the good of making me rich."

 "And what good does it do you to be rich?"

 "It makes it possible for me to buy more stars, if any are ever discovered."

 "This man," the little prince said to himself, "reasons a little like my poor tippler..."

 Nevertheless, he still had some more questions.

 "How is it possible for one to own the stars?"

 "To whom do they belong?" the businessman retorted, peevishly.

 "I don't know. To nobody."

 "Then they belong to me, because I was the first person to think of it."

 "Is that all that is necessary?"

"Certainly. When you find a diamond that belongs to nobody, it is yours. When you discover an island that belongs to nobody, it is yours. When you get an idea before any one else, you take out a patent on it: it is yours. So with me: I own the stars, because nobody else before me ever thought of owning them."

 "Yes, that is true," said the little prince. "And what do you do with them?"

 "I administer them," replied the businessman. "I count them and recount them. It is difficult. But I am a man who is naturally interested in matters of consequence."

 The little prince was still not satisfied.

 "If I owned a silk scarf," he said, "I could put it around my neck and take it away with me. If I owned a flower, I could pluck that flower and take it away with me. But you cannot pluck the stars from heaven..."

 "No. But I can put them in the bank."

 "Whatever does that mean?"

 "That means that I write the number of my stars on a little paper. And then I put this paper in a drawer and lock it with a key."

 "And that is all?"

 "That is enough," said the businessman.

 "It is entertaining," thought the little prince. "It is rather poetic. But it is of no great consequence."

 On matters of consequence, the little prince had ideas which were very different from those of the grown-ups.

 "I myself own a flower," he continued his conversation with the businessman, "which I water every day. I own three volcanoes, which I clean out every week (for I also clean out the one that is extinct; one never knows). It is of some use to my volcanoes , and it is of some use to my flower, that I own them. But you are of no use to the stars..."

 The businessman opened his mouth, but he found nothing to say in answer. And the little prince went away.

Comment by Les West on October 13, 2013 at 7:11pm

Give it up Saurab.  LOL.  Lions eh?   A dancing chicken is more like it.  The Evil Empire +is+ evil... and you people are owned by it. Whether called "ocwen" or anything else.   But the real point is the 3.5% commission Hubzu charges the BUYER +and+ the $299 "technology fee" charged to the buyer.  You can roar like a "lion" while ignoring the point like a chicken... but the fact remains that what Hubzu is doing is unethical at best and corrupt / criminal at worst.  Fact.  And the nonsense you just posted has zero relevance to the subject:  HUBZI is a fraud. 

Comment by Saurabh Singh on October 13, 2013 at 9:51am

"The lion is king of the beasts. When he leaves his den, he stretches and gazes out over all the directions. Before seeking his prey, he lets forth a mighty roar that causes the other creatures to tremble and flee. Birds fly high, crocodiles dive beneath the water, foxes slip into their holes. Even village elephants, decked in fancy belts and ornaments and shaded by golden parasols, run away at the sound of that roar."

- Thich Nhat Hanh (Old Path White Clouds).

Those who practice freedom are like the lion and the truth is like the lion's roar. Those who are enslaved by materialistic desires can never roar. They can never be lions. Freedom is the cause of happiness. Freedom from negative emotions and desire for possessions brings happiness.

I practice freedom. I meditate on the three doors to liberation - emptiness, signlessness and aimlessness. 

Emptiness is the lack of inherent existence. This is because that is. This is not because that is not. Our frustration and anxiety are a result of causes and conditions. They do not exist by themselves. They also do not manifest because of just one cause or one condition. When we look deeply we can see this. We develop insight. We become wiser.

When clouds transform into water and fall on the earth, we label it rain. We miss the clouds. We think the clouds are gone. We are deceived by signs.  Similarly,  we create a label like company names, employee designations etc. Those who are deceived by signs give undue importance to tags and begin to venerate labels. This promotes slavery. One who wants to be free practices signlessness. Once signlessness is realized, there is no fear, no anxiety.

Aimlessness is the third door to liberation. Ambition is the practice of wasting today planning for a better tomorrow. This becomes a habit and every day becomes a day wasted,  an unhappy experience. If we live in the here and now, we can enjoy this moment. We can touch happiness. There is nothing to lose, so we can smile.

One who meditates on these three doors every day has little to fear. I speak my mind. Please don't think that I promote a cause because I am paid for it. An Associate is perhaps the lowest paid employee at Altisource. Here is the Glassdoor page: 

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Altisource-Associate-Salaries-E3140...

I am a Senior Associate and I get paid a only a little more. Even real estate agents who hire Transaction Coordinators in India pay $800 a month via PayPal. That's way more than what I earn. So you can rest assured that the motivation is not money. When the motivation is money, speech lacks conviction. It's not a lion's roar. My teacher, Thich Nhat Hanh, does not earn a salary. He is a monk. However, without a doubt, he is far more skilful and his understanding dwarfs mine and of any other salary earner I know.

Much like how you think you could make more money without Ocwen/Altisource, many people at Ocwen/Altisource think  they would make more money if they worked elsewhere.  We can be happier if we take what comes our way and share it with others. Not taking from others what is not ours is a precept that one has to keep if they are trying to find happiness.  It also means not depriving others of what they deserve. If someone deprives you of what you deserve, they will suffer. So breathe. You are alive.

 

Isn't all the frustration in this thread and every thread on this website about not being able to earn more and quicker? Its creating so much stress for everyone. There are so many complaints about almost every lender I know but when I see carefully they are mere expressions of desire to earn more and quicker. We can counter this by meditating upon the three doors to liberation.   

Just because we work somewhere does not make us an official spokesperson for that company. When you have a complaint,  you should contact the appropriate party and see if it can be resolved. I believe that online communities should be used to develop skilful means to get around obstacles. I would like to be a part of such communities.  When you realize how interbeing works, you can run Ocwen! Maybe we can use our understanding of interbeing to do things that can help others. Now that's a lion's roar!

-----------------

Saurabh Singh is a student of the Vietnamese monk Thich Nhat Hanh. Any opinion expressed in this post are his personal views and not necessarily endorsed by his employer or any other individual or entity. The author does not guarantee the accuracy of any information contained in this post. The author has no idea if salaries posted on the website,  Glassdoor.com, are accurate and has no means to verify the same. Any information contained in this post about employment and employees at/of any particular organisation including but not limited to Altisource and Ocwen are based on logical reasoning and information available on the Web and cannot be termed confidential information. 

Comment by Les West on October 12, 2013 at 6:37am

My issue is the 3.5% buyer commission to pay Hubzu PLUS a $299 technology fee, no doubt to subsidize Saurabi or equivalent to post here. Why should I as a buyer fork out 3.5% + $299 "technology fee" of my hard-earned Federal Reserve notes to fund the Evil Empire? Which has more staff in India (nearly 3000) than it has in the former United States. Here is the problem I have as a potential buyer of an REO - this is an REO and *not* a short sale - the listing agent has been working with Ocwen for twenty years (a red flag on its own) and the listing agent is not cooperating with my agent because she has the property listed on Hubzu.  That stinks. I am a cash buyer at the MLS listing ask and making zero progress. My agent has tried twice to get into the REO property and has failed to do so because the listing agent has not cooperated at all with him... Reason? The reason is Hubzu. Ocwen and Hubzu are leveraging this to, in my opinion, commit fraud and profit from it.  How? Well here is one thing.  My agent was so miffed with the listing agent (an Ocwen lackey) that I as buyer went directly to the listing agent to ask about issues with the property. She informed me that the property likely has a title issue, which she did not previously reveal to my agent. So here is the problem. For Ocwen to auction the site on Hubzu (by the way I spoke to the call center in India and the denied any linkage between Hubzu and Ocwen) knowing that there is a problem with the property and to fail to disclose it - when Ocwen is fully aware of the issue - is unlawful.  Unlawful period. Full stop.  The real estate professionals here know that.  We can have Saurabi Singe or whomever employed wherever plead all day about Hubzu but quite clearly this is one huge major debt collector pushing the envelope with a fraudulent practice.  No doubt Ocwen has multiple attorneys on staff and they are aware they are pushing the legal envelope, or even operating unlawfully with their online adhesion contracts.  [NB: online adhesion contracts are virtually impossible to enforce}  When I tried to reach Ocwen's legal department to discuss Hubzu I got no further than some Suarabi clone telling me to pound sand and he denied any linkage between Ocwen and Hubzu -  that alone should be actionable. Bottom line?  I'm not going to pay 3.5% and a $299 technology fee to get scammed by Ocwen/ Hubzu. The Evil Empire is operating another scam to thieve hard earned $$ from the people who earned it. And that scam I allege to be a shady and legally questionable online farce called HUBZU, backed by an even shadier and more questionable operation called OCWEN.

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