Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jim Schneider on November 17, 2010 at 4:57am

Karen,

like so many things, the difference between a "nightmare short sale" and a "run of the mill" short sale is a matter of degrees. I recently closed a short sale in four months, and the buyer's agent (it was her first closing of any kind) was asking "why did this take so incredibly long?" Of course, four months for a short sale is really not bad at all, probably a little bit better than normal. So I'd be curious to see your timeline, because your best course of action is really dictated by how out of normal (for a short sale) this is.

If I was negotiating a short sale and the rep seems to be doing there work and moving things along, I definitely would not escalate, because the rep will probably resent it. I sometimes see a delay between verbal approval and written approval, sometimes this is because they are still working on some terms, like his fee, the real estate commission, avoiding a seller deficiency, cash contributions. If this is going on for a long period of time and nothing is happening, and the relationship with the rep is already bad, I would escalate. If would be important to know how long you've been waiting for written confirmation after you were told there was a verbal agreement.

Last but not least, yes it very well may be an ego thing! Attorney's don't generally like talking to us "lowly agents" so why not go throught the listing agent? Attorneys like speaking with attorneys, the exception being the agent on their side, because they more than likely receive their clients from agent referrals. I'd call the listing agent, try to get the lowdown on what's happening, and share your contacts with the LA. Ask them to contact the sellers' attorney, you could of course use your buyers' attorney and have him/her call the sellers' attorney.

Permalink Reply by Karen Hurst on November 17, 2010 at 5:31am

Hi Jim,
thanks for the response! Actually I "did" contact the Listing Realtor several times and was told to do whatever I could. I then contacted the atty and with a few weeks of back and forth emails with him saying he "periodically contacts BOFA", after 6 weeks of the actual "verbal" I wrote to BOFA.

I have just heard that this atty now wants a $5,000 promissory note from the sellers for BOFA and that it's because I contacted them!!!

BOFA doesn't have the information since no one signed the privacy documentation!!! So he is outright lying now and I have no recourse!

I have another shortsale going on which actually"is" a "nightmare". In this one I am the Listing Agent. So I agree about the matter of degrees, lol and I know I have to pick my battles. Unfortunately I picked the wrong one!







Jim Schneider said:

Karen,

like so many things, the difference between a "nightmare short sale" and a "run of the mill" short sale is a matter of degrees. I recently closed a short sale in four months, and the buyer's agent (it was her first closing of any kind) was asking "why did this take so incredibly long?" Of course, four months for a short sale is really not bad at all, probably a little bit better than normal. So I'd be curious to see your timeline, because your best course of action is really dictated by how out of normal (for a short sale) this is.

If I was negotiating a short sale and the rep seems to be doing there work and moving things along, I definitely would not escalate, because the rep will probably resent it. I sometimes see a delay between verbal approval and written approval, sometimes this is because they are still working on some terms, like his fee, the real estate commission, avoiding a seller deficiency, cash contributions. If this is going on for a long period of time and nothing is happening, and the relationship with the rep is already bad, I would escalate. If would be important to know how long you've been waiting for written confirmation after you were told there was a verbal agreement.

Last but not least, yes it very well may be an ego thing! Attorney's don't generally like talking to us "lowly agents" so why not go throught the listing agent? Attorneys like speaking with attorneys, the exception being the agent on their side, because they more than likely receive their clients from agent referrals. I'd call the listing agent, try to get the lowdown on what's happening, and share your contacts with the LA. Ask them to contact the sellers' attorney, you could of course use your buyers' attorney and have him/her call the sellers' attorney.

Permalink Reply by Jim Schneider on November 17, 2010 at 5:48am

six weeks at a verbal is too much, so I would be pushing someone to escalate.

That promisory note business sounds the attorney trying to find someone to blame.

I would get a hold of the listing agent and tell him if he want's this deal he'd better get involved now, and escalate the file.

Permalink Reply by joe beauchamp on November 17, 2010 at 10:15am

I do short sales - just that. It amazes me that lawyers suck realtors in because realtors believe that "the right things" will get done. Well, I spend a ton of time on the phone. Who, in their right mind, thinks that a lawyer will go for $10/hr of unholy phone conversations with banks rather than nice $190/hr chats with clients in the office for BK's and all those other things which bring in REAL MONEY for not thinking, just repeating the same things over and over? Well, surprise - the lawyer doesn't really care about the puny little $2K or whatever they would get. If it falls into their lap, fine. If not, well, they aren't actually going to work for it - and what is the downside? Nothing, you won't go to the expense of suing and losing, etc. HA!

I am biased - if I were a realtor who did listings/sales/etc., I would NOT be doing the short sale side, I'd hire us. It just doesn't pay to do things which take a ton of time and decent current knowledge when you hate what your are doing. Go to the specialist who learns every twist as it comes out because of the volume. Make it easy on yourself.

I would say that your best leverage with this atty would be to suggest that you belong to several groups and forums and will be discussing the problems and issues with using him to do the short sale - comparing notes - asking if others have used him - what results have they gotten. That will get his attention - word of mouth that he is a horse's pituty - you would have to couch things to him so that he'll realize that you won't say anything directly which could be grounds to sue you. You know, say "the lawyer who says" and his marketing slogan - insinuate, suggest, etc. (And, asking if anyone has used Fred, Esq - then start talking about problem with using lawyers and not mentioning him - the tie is made w/o saying it.) Then he can't come back with, "I'll sue you for defamation." Also, maybe mention that you'll be asking the bar what to expect from a competent lawyer and what you can do to make "a lawyer" do his duty, (and specific things - like you know you have to call BOA at least every other day to keep a SS going, this guy refuses, when you ask, to call more than once every 2 wks), etc. Hit the spots that he doesn't want to hear, but not with his name, not directly and he will likely become quite lively...

Permalink Reply by Jeff Payne on November 17, 2010 at 10:28am

Joe I agree with most of your response. There is nothing that has ever led me to believe that an atty can or will do any better job than you or I. Why would they want to be bothered by lowly administrative work? They hire a flunky to do it for them. Too many agents think that the bank is going to respond differently to an atty which in my opinion that response is negative.
The only thing that I disagree with is an agent not handling the short sale because of too much time involved. While I do not handle alot of files, typically no more than 15 or 20 at a time, I spend very little time on the phone( actually I could count on one had how many times that I have actually had to pick up the phone to communicate in the last 2 months, most of my time is spend putting a winning pacakge together from the start and from there, I find it fairly easy to get them approved. That being said, I have also taken the time to build some really good relationships with alot of people at the banks who help to get my files approved but that took a lot of time.
Don't get me wrong, I totally respect what you do and how you do it but I am in the camp that says if an agent does not want to handle the short sale, they should refer it to one that does.
At any rate, I appreciate your valued input of this site and can only hope that you and I just agree to disagree on some things without being disagreeable :)

joe beauchamp said:

I do short sales - just that. It amazes me that lawyers suck realtors in because realtors believe that "the right things" will get done. Well, I spend a ton of time on the phone. Who, in their right mind, thinks that a lawyer will go for $10/hr of unholy phone conversations with banks rather than nice $190/hr chats with clients in the office for BK's and all those other things which bring in REAL MONEY for not thinking, just repeating the same things over and over? Well, surprise - the lawyer doesn't really care about the puny little $2K or whatever they would get. If it falls into their lap, fine. If not, well, they aren't actually going to work for it - and what is the downside? Nothing, you won't go to the expense of suing and losing, etc. HA!

I am biased - if I were a realtor who did listings/sales/etc., I would NOT be doing the short sale side, I'd hire us. It just doesn't pay to do things which take a ton of time and decent current knowledge when you hate what your are doing. Go to the specialist who learns every twist as it comes out because of the volume. Make it easy on yourself.

I would say that your best leverage with this atty would be to suggest that you belong to several groups and forums and will be discussing the problems and issues with using him to do the short sale - comparing notes - asking if others have used him - what results have they gotten. That will get his attention - word of mouth that he is a horse's pituty - you would have to couch things to him so that he'll realize that you won't say anything directly which could be grounds to sue you. You know, say "the lawyer who says" and his marketing slogan - insinuate, suggest, etc. (And, asking if anyone has used Fred, Esq - then start talking about problem with using lawyers and not mentioning him - the tie is made w/o saying it.) Then he can't come back with, "I'll sue you for defamation." Also, maybe mention that you'll be asking the bar what to expect from a competent lawyer and what you can do to make "a lawyer" do his duty, (and specific things - like you know you have to call BOA at least every other day to keep a SS going, this guy refuses, when you ask, to call more than once every 2 wks), etc. Hit the spots that he doesn't want to hear, but not with his name, not directly and he will likely become quite lively...

Permalink Reply by joe beauchamp on November 17, 2010 at 12:21pm

Interesting that you can call in so little. I found last summer that when I took a few days to physically move the office, my 30 accounts sitting in BOA Equator really did SIT. That is when I realized that if you don't stay on their case, the file will slide.

I have used this with files where the buyer walked and I was waiting for a new one - I don't call in for that file and it happily sits there for months. Now, that is BOA and WF and others are usually quite different.

And, there are realtors who enjoy the haggle with reps, etc. and that is fine, but most don't - my advice is to hire someone (if we can, we will get paid by the bank - which is usually the case, otherwise we cut into the commission a bit) to take care of the unfun stuff.

Then there are the "this is my first short sale" agents. It's like watching someone on a tricycle roll out in the middle of a monster truck race... youch. No, the bank isn't there to hold your hand, they are not grateful that you are there, they don't care that you have brought them a "great deal", they will often try to cut expenses like mad and throw in extra $$ "needed". No understanding of how this bank operates, no hooks into previous negotiators, etc. who can help. I've seen horror movies that looked more humane than the slaughter which often takes place.

In those cases, it is so clear to me that someone should be handling it for them - try to make the process as easy as possible so that they can take advantage of all the short sales available instead of running as fast as possible away from them. Not just for them, if I process for them, well, they'll be back.

What ALWAYS bothers me is the bank attitude. Kill anything paying anyone bringing them a good deal. Do whatever possible to make it miserable to deal with them. So, I'm helping the bank get these done - against their will. HA! Yeah, goofy.... ;-)

Jeff Payne said:

Joe I agree with most of your response. There is nothing that has ever led me to believe that an atty can or will do any better job than you or I. Why would they want to be bothered by lowly administrative work? They hire a flunky to do it for them. Too many agents think that the bank is going to respond differently to an atty which in my opinion that response is negative.
The only thing that I disagree with is an agent not handling the short sale because of too much time involved. While I do not handle alot of files, typically no more than 15 or 20 at a time, I spend very little time on the phone( actually I could count on one had how many times that I have actually had to pick up the phone to communicate in the last 2 months, most of my time is spend putting a winning pacakge together from the start and from there, I find it fairly easy to get them approved. That being said, I have also taken the time to build some really good relationships with alot of people at the banks who help to get my files approved but that took a lot of time.
Don't get me wrong, I totally respect what you do and how you do it but I am in the camp that says if an agent does not want to handle the short sale, they should refer it to one that does.
At any rate, I appreciate your valued input of this site and can only hope that you and I just agree to disagree on some things without being disagreeable :)

joe beauchamp said:

I do short sales - just that. It amazes me that lawyers suck realtors in because realtors believe that "the right things" will get done. Well, I spend a ton of time on the phone. Who, in their right mind, thinks that a lawyer will go for $10/hr of unholy phone conversations with banks rather than nice $190/hr chats with clients in the office for BK's and all those other things which bring in REAL MONEY for not thinking, just repeating the same things over and over? Well, surprise - the lawyer doesn't really care about the puny little $2K or whatever they would get. If it falls into their lap, fine. If not, well, they aren't actually going to work for it - and what is the downside? Nothing, you won't go to the expense of suing and losing, etc. HA!

I am biased - if I were a realtor who did listings/sales/etc., I would NOT be doing the short sale side, I'd hire us. It just doesn't pay to do things which take a ton of time and decent current knowledge when you hate what your are doing. Go to the specialist who learns every twist as it comes out because of the volume. Make it easy on yourself.

I would say that your best leverage with this atty would be to suggest that you belong to several groups and forums and will be discussing the problems and issues with using him to do the short sale - comparing notes - asking if others have used him - what results have they gotten. That will get his attention - word of mouth that he is a horse's pituty - you would have to couch things to him so that he'll realize that you won't say anything directly which could be grounds to sue you. You know, say "the lawyer who says" and his marketing slogan - insinuate, suggest, etc. (And, asking if anyone has used Fred, Esq - then start talking about problem with using lawyers and not mentioning him - the tie is made w/o saying it.) Then he can't come back with, "I'll sue you for defamation." Also, maybe mention that you'll be asking the bar what to expect from a competent lawyer and what you can do to make "a lawyer" do his duty, (and specific things - like you know you have to call BOA at least every other day to keep a SS going, this guy refuses, when you ask, to call more than once every 2 wks), etc. Hit the spots that he doesn't want to hear, but not with his name, not directly and he will likely become quite lively...